Monday, June 30, 2014

I agree with you, I disagree with me too

Hello there. This post is a little... different. It started out when an awesome someone nicknamed 'Stitch', totally disagreed with a post I made on the forum about the scene where Marina dismissed Clara from her heart. My reply to them became rather long and also turned into an analysis of a scene, so I figured I might as well make it into a post on the blog. However, after writing 6 pages or so, I reread what I wrote and realized that the first part, my reply to them, would be so terribly confusing and weird to others that I started having doubts whether I should post it or not, if that was good stuff to read or just way too damn confusing and people would bail out, so I put it on hold for a good long time (nearly two months). I did let Stitch read it, which resulted in hilarious laughter from both of us.

It kept nagging at me though, cause the part that comes after, the actual scene analyzing, I still wanna let people read it, I feel it's kind of a waste of all the time I put into it and it's a really good scene, too, so I decided to post it anyway. The ending wasn't quite done yet, so that required some writing, something I have been aching to do anyway, since I've been so busy with other stuff. Also, ever since the girls got together, it seems there's less analyzing to do. At first it was great to dig into all the details about looks, touches, ways they behave, see what they feel, but now that they got together, we know what they feel, they know how they feel, they're gloriously happy, which left me a little inspirationless and a little lost. I guess the answer from now on lies in past scenes, or trying to do some character profiling like I did with the post about Vanessa. I have more thoughts about her, by the way. Maybe my next project, who knows.

I'm also kind of curious about what you guys want me to write about. Do you wanna see me dig into past scenes, analyze and dissect them and what they felt back then? Do you prefer seeing recaps (which is going to take me the rest of my life, by the way, they take forever in the way that I do them)? Or do you have a specific scene you really wanna see written about here? Please leave that in the comment section, I am curious what you want me to do, now and also after the show ends next month, so I hope you leave a note on that. I am feedback hungry!

Anyway, back to topic. This all started initially with a post that I replied to. Someone replied to mine by totally disagreeing with me and this is the reply to that one. Still makes sense? I hope so, cause it's going to get a lot more confusing, but I have to say I had the best time when I was writing it. I know it's bad to laugh at your own jokes, but I'll be honest, there may have been giggles on more than one occasion.

So let's start with the posts that made it all happen. The topic on the forum had been favourite scenes and among those mentioned were the one where Marina fires Clara from her heart and the scene the day after. First there was this post by Bastille, hidden under a fancy button that requires you to click on it:

So! I had some thoughts on it, which I voiced in the following response:

A few minutes after I posted that, someone replied to it, which is the post that set all of this in motion. Everything you read so far was written on the day I post this on the blog, but everything you see after I quote the post she made, will be the stuff I wrote two months ago, except for some things near the end that weren't finished yet and needed some cleaning up. I warn you in advance, this was me in a funny mood, I found it hilarious that she totally disagreed with me, had a lot of fun writing it but especially the first part can be really confusing to others and also quite weird, possibly annoying even if it's not your style. Whatever your style is though, at the time of writing this was mine, so basically what I am saying is, you'll just have to deal with it.

Without further ado, I give you the reply of Stitch, who had the nerve to totally call me out on being wrong, followed by my reply to her which, to no one's surprise, can be called 'rather elaborate'. I hope you enjoy it, if not, I am sorry you wasted your time, but I know I enjoyed writing it and Stitch enjoyed it when she finally read it, so I'm happy with that. Don't forget to leave a comment about this post and about what you'd like me to do in the future. Also keep in mind that this reply is me talking to Stitch, so anything I say should not be taken personally unless you are her, but feel free to do so anyway if that makes you happy. Beijos!

First of all, lol, it's not bold to disagree with me, it's normal, I’m just a girl, I make mistakes, I was born this way :P So feel free to call me on it the next time you notice something.

Cause second, you were right. My head decided to have a laugh and take me for a ride. I’ll get into it in great detail as you will find, I agree with you and I guess I should not only have been more specific when I said I agree with Bastille, I should also double check if my brain is working properly next time, cause it clearly took a wrong turn somewhere while posting this. Bottom line, I fully agree with you, I also fully agree with Bastille’s points. Yes, but it’ll all make sense if you feel like reading a lot, hehe.

I see now that I was making no sense at all to anyone reading this. I shall explain my mistake and attempt to make it right ;)

In my head it made sense and it still does, but after reading it again I can see why it doesn’t make sense to you and why you disagree with it. When I read what Bastille wrote about Marina being vulnerable, my mind immediately jumped on this thought: 'I have written about this, somewhere, something about this subject' and I began looking for it, because I wanted to grab it for reference or something while I replied and use it to maybe quote or link something. But I couldn't find it and I got appropriately annoyed at myself for not remembering where that was and I stated my frustration in my reply.

When I found another post talking about this scene and others, my head started doing its thing and my thoughts started jumping around and building bridges and connections, I started replying to the stuff going on in my head at that moment, about Marina expecting a reply. But while the subject of expecting a reply was similar in both scenes yet also different, my mind had skipped some parts and was already at this new place and I started instead replying as if you had made that little jump with me and knew exactly what I was talking about. Yes, that is weird and no that doesn’t make sense. But I can be very weird, I am very good at not making sense even to myself sometimes, so all this makes a lot of sense if you’re me. Still following? :P

Alright, let’s continue then.

Bastille’s post refers to Marina ‘firing her from her heart’. Mine didn’t refer to that one, but it referred to the day after, the scene when Clara walks into the studio and quits. I read a question about one scene, looked stuff up and found another, I made connections in my head and replied as if the question was about the other scene. In my head I connected so many wires between them that it made perfect sense to me to make that jump and I didn’t even notice mixing the scenes up. To you it made no sense at all, which is why you disagreed with it.

I should have made this more clear but that requires me to actually be aware of what's going on in my head. Sometimes my thoughts just go off and do all kinds of radical things without my permission and without telling me about it, which is the perfect recipe for a screw up. So all that stuff that seemed to make sense to me at that moment, it doesn’t make sense to anyone else at all, which makes you, Stitch, absolutely right.

Cause what I wrote there, would only make sense together with those bridges that I created in my head. Because without those bridges added in the explanation to explain the jumps, all that stuff that I wrote down would in fact, no, not make any sense at all.

So you simply read what I actually wrote down, and because I was the one making no sense here by skipping whole large chunks of required information, you saw no other option than to logically disagree with my statement and you were absolutely right when you did. When I read them again to see which part you disagreed with, I found myself agreeing with your disagreement with me, while I realized my mistake.

So as it happens, in this case I find myself disagreeing with me. I also find that disagreeing with myself feels slightly disturbing yet disturbingly hilarious at the same time. ;)

So here you go, in writing: I fully admit my screw up :P I already told you girls there is a lot of chaos in my head and here’s your proof. So, I hereby apologize for not making any sense at all. I will do everything I can to not have that happen again. If you are up for it, let me make it up to you by making awesome sense in the rest of this (long) post as I attempt to explain what I actually meant in the first place. Also, I am aware of the fact that this post still seems to be totally confusing, even though so far it actually still makes perfect sense. However, I am not going to apologize for the fact it might be a little confusing though, cause I am totally doing that on purpose, just in case I make another fun screw up and maybe this way you won’t notice :P

First of all, a thank you, you have my respect for making it all the way down to here and I hope you’re still ready for some more. We’re finally going to discuss the actual subject, shall we? I am sure you agree with me that it’s about damn time. Let’s start with Marina’s talk in which she says she’s dismissing Clara from her heart and take a good look at it. I do think Marina was very sincere when she said it. She wasn’t ‘scheming’, scheming means something like having a hidden agenda, it sounds kind of negative and I don't think Marina has that intention at all and I don't think Bastille thinks she has either. However I understand it could have been read as such and that’s why you used those words because you thought that’s what I meant, or what Bastille meant. I can assure you that I for one, didn’t. If I know Bastille at all, I don’t think she meant that either. Marina has no hidden secret agenda in my opinion.

That said, I think Marina's intention with the conversation was to find out if there was an option to move the two of them forward, or if there was even anything to move forward to. She intends to let Clara know exactly how she feels, by totally opening up to her. Finally addressing that huge elephant in the room and start admitting things to her in such clear words that it’s actually the exact opposite of scheming. She just wants to lay it all out on the table. She wants to be honest about her feelings for her, she wants Clara to fully understand them and their meaning, as well as how deep they go. Then she wants to hear Clara’s response to it so she’ll know which way Clara’s head is facing, she’s hoping to find it’s facing the same way as her own. But in case it’s not, she'll have to act on that because Marina’s been dealing with her own feelings and heartache and what to do about it for a while now, so by opening up she can finally try to find out what page Clara is actually on and if that page is even remotely close to the one Marina is on herself. Based on what she finds out, she can decide what to say or do next.

Marina starts by saying she admires Clara, that she was instantly fascinated by her, how enlightened she thinks she is, how she says she’s aware they are very different, but those things that make them so very different are also the reasons that she is drawn her to her like a magnet. Clara responds that it’s the same way for her. How from the very first moment, she instantly liked Marina. When the latter hears the word ‘like’, she knows she hasn’t been clear enough. It’s not about ‘like’, it’s about something else entirely. She really needs Clara to understand what she’s saying, She doesn’t want to leave any room for confusion about what she’s trying to tell her. So she says that two magnets with the same polarity will repel each other. As the words reach Clara one at a time, her face falls so slowly that it almost seems like that sudden feeling of apprehension isn’t allowing her to process those words at normal speed, as if it’s trying to shield her from them and anything still to come. The change in her face is so subtle, at first it’s hard to even make out, but it’s her eyes that make it so very painful to watch.

With regret in her eyes but also determination in her voice Marina goes on to say that everything that captivates her about Clara are also the very things that drive her away, much like water and oil. Not moments ago Marina was saying so many wonderful things to Clara, that when the words register, it’s almost like Clara’s gaze disappears into a black void that is slowly staining her eyes with a dark mixture of pain, surprise, confusion and sadness. She’s unsure, confused where this is coming from, no idea where it’s going and she feels totally unprepared for what else is coming. She’s still not sure what’s going on here, she thinks she has a faint idea but she’s actually not giving it half the credit and significance that she should be giving to it. She will soon find out just how deep this goes. At this point still not certain of anything, she calmly and quietly asks ‘You think?’ She is just not sure what else to say at this point and which other direction to reply in.

Marina answers that yes, she does and so does Clara, which Clara doesn’t deny. Clara knows very well that there is something and it’s important to her. So important that she’s not able to deny it. But she’s still not giving it enough credit. In fact, she doesn’t understand it yet. She feels, she hurts right now cause of what Marina is saying but she doesn’t understand it. That wonderful feeling that Marina gave her, the feeling that was so new to her but gave her a new interpretation of happiness, she doesn’t want to lose it, but the way Marina is talking, she feels like she might. It scares her, probably more than she thought it would, if she ever thought about it at all. She never even played with the thought of this becoming a problem, simply because in her mind, she wasn’t falling in love, she never realized she was. So this becoming an obstacle shocks her. She’s surprised that this is a subject that is being talked about with so much emotion. Even though when Marina talks to her, she looks at her as if she does know that this was significant, she just didn’t know why. She knew the feelings were strong and powerful, but up until now she always filed them in the wrong section. Probably the one called ‘need to sort out’.

She was confused about her feelings, but was just having too much fun enjoying them so much. So she doesn’t deny anything, but she’s also not totally aware on why this emotionally charged conversation is happening. The fact that it is happening gives her a clue on where it is going, it’s also something she was afraid to confront, so she’s not looking forward to it. As far as she knows, she was fine the way they were, enjoying each other’s company. Living in denial is also bliss, just like ignorance. Both apply to Clara here, she knew there was something, but not knowing what it was seemed like the safest way to go, so she didn’t really want to find out. She’s now forced to confront the situation, her feelings. She isn’t looking forward to it.

At the same time, Marina realizes that she’s actually going to have to go spell this thing out for her. She stands up, she's agitated.

'We are not children.' she blurts out. 'Everything we didn’t say or speak verbally we said with gestures, with the eyes, with emotion, almost telepathy. You know what I am talking about.' Marina finishes. She states it. She doesn't ask, it's a statement, she wants Clara to admit to it. Asking it as a question leaves room for denial, but stating it is a more daring approach. She lets Clara know that it's useless to deny, she already knows she knows.

Clara just sits there during this speech, looking up at Marina, letting it all wash over her like a teenager who got a bad grade and is now getting the parental speech cause they were too busy having fun to study. She even looks guilty because yes, in a way she knows what Marina means. She doesn’t and she does. She is confused about all the fun she’s been having and how intense that has been, but she knows very well that she has been enjoying it and she also knew that Marina had feelings for her. The thought that she might be returning those feelings have been way too scary, the consequences would be way too complicated so her brain simply didn’t allow her to entertain the thought. She's in over her head.

'I do, I mean, I don’t know well.' Clara gets up now too, she's in a bit of a state, breathing quickly. She paces around nervously while she stutters to find the words to explain. Marina's statement has made her decide that there's no denying, so she fesses up to it. She's just not sure yet what exactly she is fessing up to as she continues to ramble on about how she doesn't know what all this is exactly.

‘Because I don’t know how to deal with this, understand? To me, maybe it’s doubt, I don’t know, but it’s very confusing. I don’t know how to deal with this, Marina, do you understand?’

She gestures heavily while she searches for a way to explain her own feelings, it's even a little desperate when she asks Marina again if she understands that she doesn't know what this is. Unfortunately for Marina, it's exactly the thing she was hoping not to hear because it's the thing that makes it clear they are not on the same page at all.

She replies to Clara that she does understand. 'It’s exactly because of that that I’m talking for both of us.' As she continues she gets increasingly more emotional as it sinks in what she's actually going to force herself to do. 'Because I can’t, I can’t any longer live with... the presence... of the absence of your love.'

As soon as Marina speaks the word 'love', Clara is completely taken by surprise. Her whole body just stops for a few seconds while she attempts to process this. Her expression is total shock, she’s left speechless for a few very long moments, as she tries to wrap her mind around this new idea, this blindsiding bomb that she feels has just been dropped oh her. When she finds herself slowly recovering after breathing in deeply, she manages to form the question she utters next. ‘You’re talking about… love?’ She pauses for about an hour before she finally utters that last word.

She had absolutely *no idea* that this was about love. Clara did admit that she was aware something was up, but she didn’t understand at all what it was or what it was that was causing it and it’s been totally confusing her left, right and centre.

Her immense shock and her being at a loss for words tell Marina more than she wants to know and she is now totally certain that up till this point, Clara has been quite unaware of what’s actually happening here and it prompts Marina to kind of desperately exclaim that ‘Yes, of course I’m talking about love. What did you think I was talking about?’

Clara’s reaction to this is nothing short of panic. She nearly starts hyperventilating while she tries to wrap her mind around the statement Marina so desperately uttered. The fact that this is about love is completely shocking, simply cause it’s a reality check. She suddenly realizes the situation she’s actually in. Not just the fact that Marina is talking about love, nor the fact that Marina said she can’t live with its absence anymore. Clara is in panic cause she realizes this same thing applies to herself, that all those feelings she’s been having weren’t just a fun new way to experience life and random and occasional happy tummy twirls, she realizes that this is what’s been happening to her, to Clara, a woman who is married, who has a son with her husband. She realizes right this moment for the first time, consciously, that she is in fact, falling in love with a woman, that it has already happened. The thing Marina says she can’t deal with not having it, she realizes she is most definitely having it. She just never knew about it. The result is panic.

They might feel the same, or at least similarly, one possibly feels it more strongly or is more aware of it than the other but the emotions still come from the same place. However the way they look at them, the way they view and explain them, it’s completely different. Marina knows it’s love, Clara had no clue about that at all and this tells Marina that Clara hasn't entertained that thought for any fraction of a second. Clara thought of admiration, attraction, she considered other things, she knows she has feelings that she never had before, but Clara never even considered love to be one of the options. It was simply not in her list of possible explanations.

If Clara had responded with 'Yes, I think I am in love with you too.' Or something similar, even a less strong statement than that, then that conversation would have been very different. But she didn't. Clara had absolutely no clue. So Marina realizes that if Clara is on this whole other different colored page, written in a whole other language almost, that this whole thing could be a bad idea. This is why she decides to try and forget about her.

The fact that Clara hadn't even entertained the thought of 'love' at all, tells Marina that at this point, it seems rather hopeless. It hadn't even crossed Clara's mind as an option while trying to explain her own confusion, as opposed to Marina, who knew exactly what was happening. When that thought hit her, that's when she told herself, 'I need to stop loving this woman or I'm going to get hurt a lot more than this if I don’t.'

That prompts the dismissal. While she believes she should forget about Clara as a romantic interest, she doesn’t realize how much that's actually going to take. She thinks they can get back to work, be friends, sure it'll be a bit rough, but now that she knows what the deal is, she can start the process of getting over Clara. So Marina tells Clara she has lots of potential, she should keep working here, but she herself needs to take a step back, so she says she'll dismiss her from her heart. It hurts, she’s stepping on her own feelings with this and on Clara’s cause the fact that Clara is hurting too is very clear. Clara overhears the dismissal quietly and a tear rolls down her cheek as she decides the best thing to do now is simply leave. She turns around and walks out. This causes Marina to completely break down in tears as she watches Clara leave, but as much as she wants to, she doesn't call Clara back because she knows they are on totally different pages and she doesn't want to get hurt anymore than she already has, she feels she has no choice. She'd rather bail now while she thinks she still can and keep this situation from getting out of hand, but also cause at least this way she gets to do it in the exact manner she chooses to. That way she is keeping control of the situation by choosing how to handle it, while keeping Clara in her life at the same time.

That’s her solution to it. As experienced as she is when it comes to love and relationships, she’s also naive enough to think you can forget about someone you’re in love with while being around each other at work every day, all the time.

So it’s not about scheming at all, that doesn’t apply here. Marina simply didn't want to be in the dark anymore which makes sense, so I can totally see her bringing this up to get some answers. She is in love with someone, she wants to know how they feel. Depending on the answer, she'll decide what to do next, which is in this case, cluelessness and the following dismissal. I think she was very sincere, maybe 'expecting a reaction' isn't the phrase I would use. I'd say it's more like, she just simply wanted some answers on where they stood cause she was suffering.

So, as far as Marina knows, that happened, that hurt, this was a painful thing to do, she hated hurting Clara as well. She knows she did cause she saw her tears very clearly. It’s a big part of why it hurt so much. She was hurting herself, but mostly she was hurting the woman she’s in love with. But, in her head, it had to be done, she can try to move on now. Even though it hurts, she thinks she knows what the deal is, so she’s in control and she'll just have get over Clara and that’s not going to be easy but she has a goal now.

The next morning, she didn’t get any closer to that goal, in fact, it hurts even worse. She’s heartbroken, she had to give up a love she wanted to explore, she’s understandably hurting. So when she hears Clara’s voice suddenly say her name in such a serious manner, she’s startled and turns her head in shock. When Clara says she has gathered the courage and Marina is going to listen, she smiles, quite brightly. Expectantly, even. She tells Clara 'Say it, I'm waiting.' That's the part I was talking about in my post way at the top. It's like she's smiling in anticipation. What she wants to hear Clara say, is 'Ok, I thought about it, you're right, we should do something about this.' She is kind of expecting that, a positive outcome. She smiles, cause she thinks this might just be a good conversation. However, Clara realizes forgetting about someone doesn't work like that and so she does what she thinks is needed. Radical separation. Not just for Marina to get over Clara, but just as much the other way around.

As soon as Marina realizes that this is not going to be fun, she's liking it a lot less, she's scared now, afraid where this is going, she didn't expect this. After those first words that Clara used, she didn't expect to be turned down. Before Clara showed up, she had no idea what the situation was. She wasn't necessarily expecting Clara to stand in front of her with the announcement that she gathered the courage and that she has something to say, but once she did, she thought it would be good news, she expected a positive response. Something like: 'I've gathered the courage to acknowledge that you're right'. Perhaps she is naive on this subject of love. Sure she loved before, sure she got hurt before, but I agree with Bastille when she said that she thinks Marina has always been the one to make the decision to start or end the relationships. She has always been in control. She's not used to not being in control, because she's new to this partcular side of love, the vulnerable side.

When Clara said she gathered the courage and Marina was going to listen, she thought Clara had seen the light and it's all flowers and unicorns. Instead Clara goes 'You're right, something's up, but I can't do this. And if your survival depends on it, then I have to listen to my experience in life, which has taught me that forgetting someone when they are always around isn't possible, so I'm gonna have to be gone completely. I'm going to have to make this choice for the both of us. I quit.'

Everything Clara says basically makes that clear that she is hurting just as much, that it's not just Marina who's feeling this. Clara is hiding nothing here, she lays it all out on the table. She gives as reasons that they both won't suffer, she says maybe she won't survive either. She admits she's going crazy at home, she even looks at her husband differently.

It becomes a true confession when she says that Cadu would never forgive her for not being honest with him, not being loyal. She takes it even further by stating she'd never forgive herself for it. She's totally acknowledging her own feelings here. If you don't return the feelings you'd just say that. You wouldn't start talking about how both your husband and you yourself would never be able to forgive. That means the thought of acting on it has most definitely crossed her mind. Her decision to take distance is only partly for Marina’s survival. The other part is self protection.

When she says she'd never forgive herself for this, she gets extremely emotional really fast. Until now, she kind of had it together. It shows how much this matters to her, what she is giving up, only now that she’s about to not have it anymore, now that she said it out loud, the hurt really sinks in. Without knowing it, she really wanted it, but losing it stings like nothing before. The suffering would be a lot bigger if she didn't do it though. It already hurts so much, she needs it to stop before they get to that point. Marina tried to do it yesterday. Clara's doing it today, but she is taking it one step further. They are both crying, deeply sad, tears flow freely, they are in desperate need of holding each other tightly and neither wants this to be happening right now.

Here is Clara confessing there are feelings, strong feelings. Yet here is also Clara telling her she's not coming back. Marina wants Clara in her life more than anything, Clara disappearing from it didn't even occur to her. So this totally blew up in her face and it's utterly destroying her. Clara is radically 'breaking up' their friendship, it was the last thing she wanted and it has left them both nothing less than totally devastated.



  1. I've not read this yet, but I have to say right now that all I want are Recaps...and, of course, Thank you so so so much for all :)

  2. Hi, nice text again.... obviously now, recaps are the thing, but i have a few scenes i'd like to hear from you. Maybe not as complex that they should require a ful text each (well, one never know) but here they are:

    - there is a scene right in the begining of the story, when Clara finds out that Marina is homossexual (she is at the hairdresser). The way the scene unfolds always left me thinking: she buys a magazine that has Marina's pic naked (the same magazine she was looking at on the day that she opened up to her mother, just before the phone call), and when she gets home, Cadu asks her what magazine did she buy. She tells him that is a women's magazine and that she is going to rest. She gets to the bedroom, changes to more confortable clothes, and lays in bed admiring Marina's photographs... it always intrigued me because either she already felt attracted to Marina (which i think is the thing) or she had felt attracted to women before, even during the marriage (but never acted on it)... Clara is quite a complex character;

    Then there is the more recent sequence of the dinner Marina cooks for Clara and the way it finishes; and then following day they go out to shopping - i have a slight feeling that their got together for the first time on that day, even before Clara and Cadu split off;

    Thanks for the wonderful analisys :)

  3. The scene that I most want to hear from you is one of those choosed by the the author of the last comment:

    "Then there is the more recent sequence of the dinner Marina cooks for Clara and the way it finishes; and then following day they go out to shopping - i have a slight feeling that their got together for the first time on that day, even before Clara and Cadu split off"

    I have the same feeling. It' made no sense the sudden change in their relationship without any scene between the the dinner when Marina said she'll not even look Clara leaving, because she can't stand this anymore, and the shopping scene when they seem so happy being together, flirting and talking about their feelings.

    I'm not a native speaker, sorry any grammar mistake or something like that.

  4. Amotorrebe here. I finally got to read this post again. I had a great time now that I actually had time to enjoy it. As usual you are AWESOME and so were Stich for inspiring such great trip. Loved you guys are just green minds. About the post I think we had a discussion regarding when Clara fell in love with Marina and I realised by reading this post that you were totally right. But so was I as in she felt instantly in love with Marina but shr just filed the love in the wrong section ;-) you're awesome again and just in case I'll say it again: YOU ARE AWESOME

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